OK. I've heard multiple times on these forums that the fighter is underpowered and broken. My questions are how is it broken and more importantly how do we fix it? My immediate reaction is to give the fighter more feats but other than that. I'm lost. Anyone else have any ideas?
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So this is what I did for my fighters... First furnish everyone all the classes 1 bonus feat at 1st level. But restrict the Fighter's choice to Weapon Focus (choice). At aim 1-4 the Fighter is actually the strongest class (though some say the barbarian). Then give the Fighter with a weapons progression at dead levels and a set of bonus skills and skill points (a military operational specialty or MOS) at a central inform in adventuring. Like the following:Lvls1- Weapon Focus (choice) 5- Weapon Specialization (level 1 weapon) 7- 5 skills are chosen (1 of which MUST be either a Knowledge skill or Profession skill) - these are now class skills. Gain 12 bonus skill points. 9- Melee Weapon Mastery OR Ranged Weapon Mastery 11- Greater Weapon cerebrate (level 1 weapon)15- Greater Weapon Specialization (level 1 weapon) 19- Weapon Supremacy Use or not as you see fit.
That sounds desire a pretty good broach for the fighter. I desire the idea of adding specific feats as a class feature desire how the ranger gets either Point-Blank Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd make one more dress though: The fighter can take Weapon Focus (new weapon) instead of one of the other feats in the progression (Greater Weapon Focus. Weapon Specialization etc.).
It depends on what you set as a standard to measure the fighter against. If you use the monsters from the monster manuals and NPC enemies and follow the wealth by level chart it's possible to build a competent (and more than competent) fighter for the celebrate. In other words if you go the rules fighters are book. If you are more interested in how well a class does solo how much power and versatility it brings to a party and how many spells it can cast then the fighter doesn't decide up as well as other classes. In other words it you expect a lot out of the fighter that the bet didn't intend him to be capable of the fighter seems underpowered. That said. I think the fighter can use something to alter it more interesting. This wouldn't be different than all of the new material all other classes have received as a precursor to 4th edition. The small be of work I've done towards something of that nature is designing synergies between feats that are based on level. Fighters are based heavily on feats so I figured a nice way to increase them would be to create different ways that these feats can act.
That sounds like a pretty good broach for the fighter. I like the idea of adding specific feats as a class feature desire how the ranger gets either Point-Blank Shot or Two-Weapon Fighting. I'd make one more dress though: The fighter can act Weapon Focus (new weapon) instead of one of the other feats in the progression (Greater Weapon Focus. Weapon Specialization etc.).
I had that in a previous version of my fighter fix. The only problem is that Weapon Supremacy requires both Greater Weapon cerebrate and Greater Weapon Specialization. Thus you would be losing your top feat in the progression. So. I dropped that original version in advance of the previously posted progression. After all the Fighter has tons of other feats. If he wants a weapon focus in a secondary weapon he can use those feats.
I gave it 4 + Int mod skill points per aim and 2 class skills at choice. This is to build any kind of fighter you be:Sentinel/follow: sight. Listen or Sense Motive can be nice for this character. Noble/Cavalier: Knowledge (royalty and nobility). Knowledge (history) or Diplomacy seems appropiate. Soldier/Scout: Heal and Survival can be handy. Weapon specialist: Perform and go seems good. Mercenary/Thug: Appraise. Sleight of Hands or Bluff would definitely back up this kind of character... etc. And a fighter bonus feat at 19th level xD yeah if you get to 19th aim you get the extra bonus fighter feat cause you deserve it.. and you would definitely need it at that point. The same bonuses applies for the CW Samurai.. if any player is crazy enough to act this categorise.
Here's what I did for fighters. change magnitude skill points to 4+Int mod and add all movement based skills to their categorise skill enumerate weapon cerebrate for free at first level weapon specialization for remove at 2nd level greater weapon focus for remove at 4th level greater weapon specialization for free at 6th level. Melee weapon mastery/ Ranged for remove at 8th level. Weapons supremacy for remove at 10th level. I'm aware that you don't cater the requirements for nearly all of these at the level they're acquired at but the be one charge i comprehend from most people is that the bet is basically over by aim 10 and these benefits aren't so terribly great that it's unbalanced.
Ok so 50% (Maybe more) believe that fighters are good as they are and the remaining % accept they are underpowered. I bet the other % undergo never tried looking for feats that synergise or just pick feats for rp reasons (which is a whole other topic). I can make a fighter several different builds in fact that are just as capable as any other categorise. I don't see how any of you lot can't do the same. If one player can do it without breaking the rules then so can anyone else.
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Poor skills loads of Dead levels. Fighters despite loads of feats becoming boring "one-trick ponies". And Fighters (as well as all other contend type classes) weak later on at the higher levels. [Edit: And poor Will saves making them run away or be Charmed a lot.]
Skills: Add ameliorate. Profession and Spot to categorise skills. Maybe bring up up be of points as far as +2 skill points/level to ALL classes to not disturb balance too much. Dead levels: Fill them with more feats. ordain also back up cater levels later on. Getting Variety of action: Limiting all new feats to Strategy feats which give 3 new abilities per feat so one can do lots of stuff. Warrior contend fit: shift Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise feats and have them as a command instead of Defensive fighting or basically: give them remove to everyone. populate can defend themselves exceed in general then and Warriors can defend themselves even exceed than others later on due to significantly higher locate Attack Bonus.[Edit: forgot this one:]Courage: Will bring up vs worry save. +1 at 2nd. +2 at 11th. +3 at 20th to alter hardened warriors run away less. (Should be added to Barbarian and Ranger as well.)More explanation of details and balancing ideas can be open on the following thread to which there is a cerebrate in my signature:
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In hope that you think my thoughts around re-balancing the 11 core classes are wise as well as worthwile to mention upon click here: Also got a as well for people to comment upon.
I evaluate Fighters are just book exactly the way they are with their current feat numbers and dead levels and don't need more skill points than they have now but definately need exceed skills. For ultimate versatility (which. IMO is what a Fighter is all about). I'd say regenerate it's current skill selection with "Any six skills plus Craft."Fighter isn't supposed to compete with Warblades and Clerics and the minmaxed melee cease you find on the forums. It just needs to compete with the other full BAB classes of the PHB and a better skill selection makes them a very attractive option. And yes. I have played Barbarians. Fighters and Rangers. I see no real cerebrate to choose Fighter out of that lot unless I was making a straight archer. Which. BTW. Fighters can't use the sniping option as-is anyway so I'd rather use a Ranger and cry about my poor feat selection and multiclass later.
If you don't be to play 4th Edition then keep playing 3rd. Just like everyone who didn't want to compete 3rd did. compete the edition you like. D&D isn't the rules the companies act it's the event of friends gathering with books dice and good times.
Whether you personally sight the fighter underpowered depends on the combination of several factors:(Note the following are general trends not absolute. It helps if you say each one with 'in general' or 'modally'; I evaluate there are populate who undergo open the exceptions.)1) The level at which most of your games take place. The gap between casters and melee and fighters and everybody else widens the higher level you go up. If you only compete low-level games you won't likely sight it much.2) The power aim of your bet. If you are closely following the stated baseline standard of compete e g. 25-point buy/4 encounters per day stock MM cram (which I sight to be frankly A Bit Naff if a necessary evil myself) then you are more likely to not notice the disparity than if you use a higher aim of cater; this correlates closely with 1.3) The technical rules proficiency of your entire assort and in particular the DM. A Fighter in the alter hands can be quite powerful when optimised whereas a caster in particular can easily be made to suck by a poor player due to lousy spell selection making them be more even. This is especially adjust if your assort favours blasting/alter dealing over battlefield control (mine does generally but we're getting better!) Conversely a novice fighter player will be totally outclassed by another character in the hands of a skilled optimiser. But it's mainly the difference in levels of rules proficiency that makes the noticable difference either way.4) The nature and type of the opposition in your games. Whether you are fighting primarily monsters humanoids with class levels have out of the MM or modified or homebrew creatures the mix of opposition types numbers and tactical proficiency on the part of players and DM. In command. Fighters are not so noticibly disparate in games where the opposition is mainly noncasters with few flying or highly mobile enemies or is mainly underground or otherwise confined where the Fighter's beat Attacks are at their most optimum; potentially too a Fighter's 'trick' (like an optimised tripper of grappler) is affected by the write of enemies. Tripping is next to useless if all the opposition are mainly large monsters but it way better against NPCs. If resting is strongly discouraged and the DM expects to runs you ragged in terms of resoucres then Fighters are better off. If resting is merely a minor end in the action and "you rest for eight hours" is a common phrase then Fighters less come up off. This ties in closely to 3.5) The use of Tome of Battle. Fighters in particular look very poor in comparison to Warblades due to the Warblade's (in-theory) flashy maneouvers (in actuality it has been proven the Warblade is as capable of dealing damage as the Barbarian only with slightly more mobility).6) Whether you believe the Fighter's bonus feats sufficiently powerful that they are each equivilent to two of everybody else's class features. This was the point that convinced me when it was brought to my attention.(Apparently some of the WotC staff think that Fighter feats are so powerful they are equivilent to whole levels of spells; see Complete back's replacement class features...)Other points to say: The CharOp boards who are the most technically proficient rules mechanics rarely (to the best of my knowledge) utilise the Fighter in any build. It is vastly more difficult if it is even possible to end the game using a Fighter as opposed to a great broach of other classes. To hone a Fighter generally means shoehorning yourself into one or at most two contend patterns often which are ineffective against certain enemy types (usually larger ones) whereas a lot of classes can alter better (casters martial adepts) or undergo abilities that have more or less the same level of cause on everything (e g. Rogues (save for Undead). Warlocks.)Fighters have very poor out-of contend utility unlike most other classes who can have either lots of skills or one or two but which are of more use (UMD. Spellcraft. Knowledge at al.)The Fighter while generally underpowered is not so underpowered as to be unplayable and it has an advantage that it is relatively simple to compete (assuming you don't make use of any clever options to mkae it play well) if "I beat contend" is a commonly viable option in your campaign (as I suspect it is in many campaigns.)What I personally did to redress the balance in my games was furnish Fighters and extra feat evey odd level at 3rd. I allowed it to be any feat for which they qualified for not just fighters feats (thus allowing them to be more clever). In addition. I added special abilities or bonuses to some feats which required certain levels of fighter to be able to use. E g. a engrave with 8 Fighter level gets to stack Keen and Improved CRit; a character with at least one aim of Fighter who act press Will replaces his Bad Will deliver with Good progression and so on. While it may not be all that a good of a fix. Fighters don't get that much of short shrift in our games change surface though they did need a power-boost; plus it has the favor of being very simple as easy to retrofit. The specifics should you be interested are in the link in my sig.
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Fighters are actually one of the more powerful non-casting classes combat-wise if the feats are selected carefully and splatbooks are allowed. The "Fighter sux" rhetoric I believe to be based upon a few factors:1) Fighters did suck when it was core-only. Not enough feats to choose from - and they didn't stack all that come up.2) Fighters do drink if you don't choose your feats carefully. You need to choose feats that stack nicely. We've probably all witnessed a non-optimizer playing a fighter - its not pretty.3) Fighters are geared towards combat - some people like versitility outside of contend - the fighter class is not for them.4) 1/2 the levels of the fighter do not have writing in the margin. ("dead levels argument"). Honestly - if the fighter had 1 skill inform per level - and on those keep levels it said "Add 2 more skill points" - I evaluate that sentiment would end.5) Fighters are frontloaded. By getting 2 bonus feats in the first 2 levels - a lot of populate can't see the point of the 3rd aim - calling it a "dip" categorise. Frankly - I'm not sure that a categorise that is really good for dipping means it's not good overall - it's flawed logic. I was one of the "fighter sux" displace only a few months ago (because of reason be 2 above). However - I've since seen many fighter builds that breathe out the socks off other non-caster builds for contend. Check out Dungeon-crasher in Dungeonscape - see how that can be used with a rush build and a "remove bull rush" feat like Knockback. Check out Heedless Charge within Shock Trooper feat. See how that can be combined with Leap attack or Spirited rush and a 2 handed weapon. analyse out the Goliath in Races of Stone. See how you can use that with Knockdown. Combat Reflexes and Improved Trip. Then see how the above feature. rush with Heedless Charge/Leap attack doing an automatic trip with Knockdown (granting another remove attack with heedless rush bonuses against a prone opponent)Really - Barbarian is the exceed dip class - combine the above with a single level of Lion Totem barbarian for Pouncing/Raged fun.
- my guide for mastering the call monster spell and Planar Binding spells. - my opinionated command for mastering battlefield control debuffing and buffing - and letting Big. Stupid Fighter's do your alter work. - My opinion paper regarding this class variant for wizards. Breaking down the math of the variant. - A breakdown of the beat spells of this school for Wizards ranked by awsomeness. God's Tools - A breakdown of these spells - which to act which to avoid God's Tools - A heavily debated breakdown of necromancy spells for your wizard. - A breakdown of my favorite educate - spell by spell.
Can accept with you on most points there even if I don't accept on #4 nor that "Fighters are book as they are". Also a "front-loaded dip-class" is also a class that do undergo problems with it's late levels. You also do not adress the "one-trick pony" problem that makes Fighters plainly alter to play. Nothing to do when it's not contend and only one or two strategies trained if it comes to combat and then it's mainly grinding.(Also forgot the low Will-save argument above and my Courage-ability fix to it. Edited in those in my affix above.)What I am saying is that Fighters are powerful but that it takes a skilled player that knows the system to compete them and is not a class for beginners. And the Skilled players don't be to do boring Fighters anyway as if they build them to be efficient in contend they comfort lack a lot of flexibility even there despite the massive amount of Feats they get. (And they need all of them in strategically good places to be competitive not having any left for "fun" feat selections.)Adding 9 bonus feats with the restriction of "Strategy feats" ordain restrict the Fighters a bit so they do not "power play" their feats totally and hence force them to get feats that will grant them numerous bonuses to take advantage of in battle not limiting them to single strategies. The added cater boost also come in the later levels only adding to their power at medium and high levels where they be their boost. They are also conceptually good as they ordain add to the Fighter to be trained Strategists in contend able to adapt to the situation as needed.
Hit Die. BAB and Saves: As the usual fighter. categorise skills points per level: 4 + Int mod. Class skills: The same as the fighter plus any set from the following enumerate:follow/Sentinel: Add Listen. Spot and Sense Motive as categorise skills. Cavalier/Noble: Add Knowledge (nobility and royalty). Knowledge (history) and Diplomacy as categorise skills. Marksman/observe: Add Move Silently. sight and Survival as class skills. pass/Bodyguard: Add Heal. Profession and Sense Motive as categorise skills. Mercenary/Thug: Add Appraise. go and Forgery as categorise skills. Weapon know: Add act. comprehend and Spot as categorise skills. Adventurer: Add Search. alter Device and Use Magic Device as categorise skills. Any other accent: Add any two skills as categorise skills. Fighter Bonus Feat: At every level that's not a multiple of 3 the improved fighter gain a bonus feat this feat must be a fighter feat and the character must meet all prerequisites required by the feat. Courage: At 3rd level the improved fighter obtain a +1 morale bonus to Will saving throws against any fear effect this bonus increases to +2 at 9th level and to +3 at 15th level. equip Focus: At 6th level the improved fighter can add 1 more to the maximum dexterity bonus to AC by any intermediate or heavy armor he is wearing and reduce it's analyse penalty by 1. Armor Specialization:At 12th aim the improved fighter obtain damage reduction compete to 1/- if wearing an intermediate or heavy equip. Armor Mastery: At 18th aim the fighter may add a +1 competence bonus to AC when wearing an intermediate or heavy equip.======================================== ======================================== =======Analysis:This fighter gain 2 more skill points per level and 3 more categorise skills this has never broken any game and can definitely bring some flavor to the character from the mechanics to the extent of being great background tools. The 3 equip features are practically meaningless the 3 of them are as good as a single feat but furnish the fighter a niche: armor. Courage is to respond to ennoble_Zeb's questioning why should a seasoned warrior go away running every measure something scary happens? This guy should experience about death this guy faces death every once in a while and HIT IT WITH AN AXE! IN THE FACE. And well. I'm using the infamous 14 feats fighter yes 3 more fighter bonus feat across 20 levels.. not too shabby.
The fighter is not too weak nor broken because of the perceived weakness. There are issues just like with all classes you can find a enumerate of perceived "issues" with the fighter and why they are not problems. Before making any changes to the class. I would declare that you write down what you feel the problems are. Once you do that come approve and ask for ways to address those issues or see if they are issues at all. Asking us what we conclude is wrong and making adjustments based on that ordain not necessarily help the fighter (or any categorise or rule for that matter) fit exceed in your campaign. The fact that you haven't noticed any problems yet might mean that the fighter is book as is in your campaign and making any adjustments could end up causing problems rather than fixing them.
IMO...1. The fighter's primary role is as a blocker. Blockers just don't get much credit. Standing out lie and taking damage looks mighty easy and not so critical -- until you realize that any wizard rogue adorn ranger monk etc doing the same thing would typically be dead first round.2. The fighter's primary role isn't flashy. Rarely is he 'saving the celebrate'. Unlike the rogues doing massive sneak contend alter or casters blasting stuff away or clerics keeping folks alive but standing and blocking rarely gets much sight. "Tank" is often not a positive call.3. A lot of folks don't play low-levels at much -- either starting a mid-levels or going through low-levels fairly quickly. Part of the fighter's balance is that they are stronger a low-level and casters change state more powerful at high levels. At 1st to 7th levels fighters get most of the kills -- few spells can deal as much alter as a good sword and wizards bards sorcerors and others are extremely weak at those levels. By 10th+ the casters change state powerful enough to due without blockers. 4. The fighter has almost no roles outside of combat. A rogue can observe or search a bard or cleric has diplomacy wizards undergo knowledge skills a barbarian can guide you through the wilderness etc. Your typical fighter isn't likely to alter to any 'secondary' roles.5. At higher levels blocking is less of an issue. Area control spells (Evards solid fog etc.) protect spells summoned creatures (last long enough) that casters can do without the blocking role. However if you look at the core out classes (bard barbarian cleric druid fighter monk ranger rogue paladin sorceror and wizard) and exclude the primary spell casters (cleric druid sorceror and wizard). I'm not sure that the fighter is in any more need of fixing than anything else. Each other class makes trade offs -- skills and other abilities for less effective contend abilities.
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If a fighter really wants to hone against spellcasters all he has to do is take the 3 mage slayer feats
After that get boots of fly or gravity boots and casters undergo no chance against you. A be of 4 or 5 feats (You need alter contend for one of the mage slayer feats) pretty much allows you to defeat any spellcaster.
What are you kidding? Unless the fighter starts the fight *next* to the caster the fighter does not auto-win in any sense of the evince. And hell quickened spells also don't provoke so there are many ways for a caster to get away. We used to undergo a fighter in our celebrate.. and then he re-rolled a bard becuase the fighter was too darned useless.
You simply charge the caster and then if he wants to cast a recite he provokes an attack of opportunity and cant cast defensively.... If he flies away you use your boots to fly with him.. Sure he can go invisible if he quickens it but because of the mage slayer feats that doesnt be. Sure he can teleport if he quickens it but that just stops the fight and no one wins. What will the mage do deepen all his spells(hardly likely most likely will only quicken a few)? The fighter with those feats doesn't undergo to do any preparation to blackball a mage just charge and hit and forbid his spells from there. And no offence but your friend obviously wasn't good at picking feats and didnt optimise at all if he re-rolled cos of that.
You simply rush the caster and then if he wants to direct a spell he provokes an attack of opportunity and cant direct defensively.... If he flies away you use your boots to fly with him.. Sure he can go invisible if he quickens it but because of the mage slayer feats that doesnt be. Sure he can teleport if he quickens it but that just stops the fight and no one wins. What will the mage do deepen all his spells(hardly likely most likely will only quicken a few)? The fighter with those feats doesn't have to do any preparation to kill a mage just rush and hit and forbid his spells from there. And no offence but your friend obviously wasn't good at picking feats and didnt optimise at all if he re-rolled cos of that.
Yuo assume a rush ordain arrive the caster. Also a displace targeted on the boots ordain shut down that boots of flying. An anti-magic field ordain also change state all of your items down. Or hell if he's feeling convey a Disjunction. He's flying you can't reach him except with your (masterwork) bow. A few rounds is all that's needed for a save or die spell to stick especially against a Fighter's bad Will deliver. And AMFs doesn't mean the caster can't contend the Fighter anymore. Orb spells aren't affected.
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And you assume that a charge won't reach the caster. A fighter with improved clutch who succeeds on the act analyse stops the caster from flying heck even one without improved grapple a mage is unlikely to hit him with his cater. Go ahead direct antimagic field while im grappling you
And from what i bequeath a creature under the effects of a fly spell can charge. So 120 ft should be enough to reach the mage. Also while AMF's dont convey the caster can't contend the thing in AMF such as with the orb or acid etc spells (Conjuration(Creation)). I don't recall any deliver or die spells that are Conjuration (Creation). It all comes drink to initiative.
Hit Die. BAB,Bonus Feats. Saves and Skills: As the usual fighter. Awesomness: At 3rd aim you change state awesome you can add your awesome fighter level as an awesome bonus to any awesomeness analyse. That's pretty awesome. Lesser minmax optimization: At 5th aim you can affix your fighter build or ask for back up in an online forum you can construe up to 5 responses. Casters can't have all spells prepared: At 7th aim you learn that casters can't have all spells prepared that gives you a +100 competence bonus on self consider checks. Great minmax optimization: At 9th awesome fighter level you can now start a new thread about your fighter on the same or a new forums this measure you can affix your resource books and some helpful input in order to get useful responses you can read up to 10 responses in both your threads. Casters be measure to direct spells: At 11th aim of this class you learn that casters be some measure to cast spells that nets you a +0.75 circumstance bonus on wish checks. If you ever happen to see a caster casting a spell in less than a standard challenge this feature is lost.. for good. Greater minmax optimization: At 13th level (if you're still taking levels in this class) you can now construe the first two pages of any of your threads (but not both create that would be munchkinsm). Saving the die from the deliver or die: When your character is slaughtered (cause about this aim you should get killed once in a while by spells) by a save or die spell (save or auto-lose also answer) you can act all your cut and go home without this feature you would have to alter some lame excuses and be polite with this feature you can show your anger without regrets anyone will understand that you can't possibly be happy taking so many levels in such a lame class. Heavy minmax optimization: You can now construe entirely your threads they should undergo become a flaming war about how lame the fighter class is and how if optimized and carefully thought can be a very decent choice.. for about 2 levels.. to qualify for another categorise. Samuel L. Jackson's. Vin Diesel's and throw Norris's approval: Samuel L. Jackson. Vin Diesel and throw Norris approves you for getting to this level.
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